Episode Transcript
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Welcome to Nutrition For Mortals, the podcast that says life is too damn short to spend your time and attention worrying about your food choices.
So let's take a deep breath and then join us, two registered dietitians and friends, as we explore the world of nutrition with a special focus on cultivating a healthy and peaceful relationship with food.
My name is Matt Priven, and I am joined as always by my co-host and the best dietitian on planet Earth, Jen Baum.
Hey, Jen.
Hey, Matt.
And just a quick reminder, if you would like to support the show, we do have a Patreon where we do an extra bonus episode every month.
And as always, a portion of our Patreon does go to support the Hunger Project, which is a wonderful organization.
You can always find us on Instagram at Nutrition For Mortals.
And, reminder, we are real live dietitians in private practice.
And so if you or anyone you know has ever thought about or wanted to work with a dietitian, you can always feel free to reach out to us.
And we're online at oceansidenutrition.com.
That's right.
Jennifer, what are we talking about today?
So, Matt, today it's another of our Let's Talk About episodes.
And today we are going to be talking about the Whole30, which is a diet that has been around for about 15 years now, and has definitely maintained its popularity.
Yes, a highly requested episode.
And I can't wait to learn more about it.
As much as this fills my psyche here, like I heard so much about Whole30, I actually don't know that much about it.
Well, that's good because that's always fun, because then I get to kind of teach you along the way.
But I think this is one that you and I both have people come to us in practice, asking us questions about.
We have many people that may have engaged or tried the Whole30 before.
So I think there's a lot of value in digging into this one.
Absolutely.
What I typically hear is, oh, I did eight Whole30s and I don't want to do them anymore.
So can you help me do something different?
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.
Well, and I think the Whole30 is different than other diets that we've talked about so far in this Let's Talk About series.
In that, Whole30 is really based on this concept of an elimination diet.
And so the other thing I think we can do today is talk a little bit more about elimination diets and when they are actually necessary.
Yes, that would be super interesting.
And then also, this is sort of a time-limited approach to dieting, right, or it's 30 days.
And so that's a little different than what we've discussed thus far.
That's right.
Yes, it's a very kind of like strict, limited period of time.
And we'll get more into what the plan entails.
But you're exactly right.
This is different from other diets we've talked about in that it is a very time-limited approach to trying to shift or change how you're feeding yourself.
Would the creator of Whole30 be angry that we're using the D word here to describe this?
Absolutely.
I think the creator does not like the D word and would instead say that Whole30 is not a diet at all.
It's a short-term reset that is supposed to help you improve your relationship with food.
Oh, they're using relationship with food talk.
Oh yeah.
No, we're going to get into it.
There is a lot of relationship with food talk.
But you know, just before we dig into the history of Whole30, because that's definitely where I want to start.
As always, can we scoot over to the caveat corner very quickly?
Absolutely.
I'll join you there.
I hate you.
I hate you.
Okay.
So as always, when we do these Let's Talk About episodes, there is absolutely no judgment or criticism for anyone who is engaged with Whole30.
The goal with these episodes is always to look critically at these plans, dig into the science around them, and explore whether or not they have the potential to do more harm than good.
And so if you're listening and you absolutely love the Whole30, awesome.
And if you love it and you don't want to hear us critically evaluate it, that's also great.
We have lots of other episodes you can check out.
I love it.
Perfect.
Okay.
So give me the history of Whole30.
Do I call it the Whole30 or just Whole30?
It's the Whole30, Matt.
It's very formal.
Capital T, the Whole30.
Okay.
Give me the history here.
Okay.
So the Whole30 was created by two individuals, a married couple at the time, Melissa Urban and Dallas Hartwig.
And just to give you a little information about their backgrounds, Dallas Hartwig is a licensed physical therapist.
Melissa Urban received a business degree from the University of New Hampshire.
She's now a certified sports nutritionist as well.
And one of the things that Melissa Urban is very open about is talking about her struggles with drug addiction.
And so she talks a lot about in her videos, in the Whole30 itself, in the books, she talks about how she first began struggling with substance abuse in college.
She then went into rehab in her mid-20s, got sober and became very, very focused on fitness and nutrition.
And so it was in 2009 when Melissa and Dallas first came up with the idea of Whole30.
And they essentially began blogging about the program because it was 2009.
And that is what people did in 2009.
Okay, gotcha.
And so it sounds like she shares a lot about addiction and how that is sort of in the origin story of the Whole30, which is why you're telling me about it.
That's right.
That's right.
I mean, I think she is very upfront.
She is very open about talking about how she felt the need to change kind of every aspect of her life after she got sober, which is why I think she dove so deep into fitness, into nutrition, into wellness.
So it is a really kind of central, important aspect of her life.
And she brings in that discourse when she talks about the Whole30.
And so why don't we actually start by playing a clip of Melissa Urban talking about how she and Dallas Hartwig came up with the Whole30 idea.
“Now I want to ask about, because you started this with your ex-husband, you started this program.
Was it your idea?
Was it his idea?
Was it?
I mean, he was the one who suggested it in the first place.
He's a physical therapist.
He had been doing some research into dietary factors that impact rheumatoid arthritis because his little sister had RA, and came across a paper from Loren Cordain, who's like the paleo OG about lectins and certain foods.
And as a physical therapist, he had had this shoulder injury that he just could not heal.
And he removed some of these foods from his diet, and his shoulder pain cleared up miraculously and never returned, which really got his attention.
What were his foods?
He was eating a lot of beans, he was eating a lot of oatmeal, he was eating a lot of grains, and that was the stuff he pulled out.
And his shoulder pain got better.
But some people aren't affected by that, right?
They're not affected by the grains or the oats.
It affects different people in different ways to various degrees.
Probably at different stages of your life, too.
That also could be it.
If you're experiencing a lot of life stress, and you're chronically under-slept and over-trained, then maybe those factors have more, right?
This is the whole point of self-experimentation, because there's no one-size-fits-all.
So we had gone to a seminar that Rob Wolf had given where he was talking about paleo, which was what Dallas had researched, and Rob was like, you know, just try it for 30 days.
And that's basically what Dallas proposed to me.
We were doing this really heavy Olympic lifting session, and we were sitting around afterward, and I was eating thin mints.
I remember specifically thin mints right out of his sleeve.
I could have a whole box of thin mints.
So good.
And he was like, we should do this 30 days squeaky clean.
And the thing that made me a really good drug addict also makes me really good at taking on new habits, because I was like, okay, when do you want to start?
And he's like, now.
And I literally handed the thin mints to my friend Zach, and I was like, cool, let's go.”
Wow, I learned so much in that clip about where we're going in this episode.
Yeah, you can definitely tell that now the Whole30 is going to be very heavily paleo-influenced, right?
You hear talk about lectins, right?
We have talked about Dr. Steven Gundry on the show and how much he hates lectins and how there is little to no evidence to support eliminating lectins, but that's a very kind of big idea in paleo world.
So, you can get an idea and a sense of where we're going and how the Whole30 came about.
And her psychology going into this.
She talks about what made her susceptible to substance abuse, also makes her really good at starting new habits, which I guess to me suggests some all-or-nothing thinking, and she used the term squeaky clean to describe the eating style that she was going to take on.
So, I'm starting to get a tone here.
Yeah, for sure, and that is going to be a theme.
Very, very all-or-nothing, black and white.
You're either in the elimination stage of the Whole30 or you're not.
And so, I think hearing her speak about it, and just hearing her speak about how it came about, like, I mean, I think one of the things that struck me as I was researching for this episode is that there's no research behind this 30 days.
Like, they just picked 30 days, or somebody at this seminar suggested that they do this for 30 days.
This is not a magic number that's coming from research, or that is coming from science supporting that elimination diets have to be done for a 30 day period of time.
Yeah, it's like Banana Island.
It is like Banana Island.
30 days, only bananas.
Only bananas, yeah, that's exactly right.
That's exactly right.
And so, what is interesting about the Whole30 is that it really didn't explode instantly.
So, Melissa and Dallas were blogging about their experience doing the Whole30, but it didn't take off until 2014.
And that is because that is the year that Melissa Urban and Dallas Hartwig really started using social media to spread the word about Whole30.
And so, I actually, Matt, want to have you read a quote from a book called Just Eat by Barry Estabrook, speaking about how Melissa and Dallas used social media to really help the Whole30 go viral.
Quote, the Whole30 is the only diet book I've seen that includes a social media primer, which urges participants to get their hashtags in order and then explains exactly what a hashtag is and how to use hashtag Whole30 to make your Twitter and Facebook posts searchable.
As friends shared their stories and their followers saw the results and decided to try the diet themselves, the Whole30 went viral.
Welcome to the internet.
Thank you, Bo.
Yes, yes.
Well, and I actually got the original Whole30 book.
The first book came out in 2015 and really it has this primer right in the first couple pages.
It walks you through what is a hashtag, the importance of building and becoming a part of the Whole30 community by using hashtags.
So again, incredibly smart marketing by Melissa and Dallas in terms of making sure the word was spread about the program.
Wow.
And I feel like these days we would look at that and go, are you kidding me?
You're going to try to tell me how to use social media in your book about dieting.
But maybe this was like that sweet spot where people were like, oh yeah, hashtags are pretty cool, huh?
Maybe I could use those.
It was a time where this worked really well because, like I said, they wrote the first Whole30 book together in 2015.
And then it took off.
I mean, it was on the New York Times best seller list for over a year.
It sold millions of copies.
They got deals with Blue Apron and Whole Foods.
So I mean, it went viral incredibly quickly.
Yeah, that's so interesting.
Even before we talk about the program itself, it's just so interesting to hear about a program that invested so heavily into social media at a pivotal point in time.
And you mentioned that Melissa has a business background, right?
So she probably was the brains of the operation.
That's what I thought too.
I mean, she and Dallas have since gotten divorced.
And so she really is the central figure behind Whole30 right now.
She has gone on to write several Whole30 books herself at this point.
But I thought the same thing as you, Matt, that her background in business likely made her very savvy.
And it sounds like she really took advantage of using social media to her advantage.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, you tell me about the program now.
What is the Whole30 exactly?
Okay.
I appreciate you using the.
You're doing a great job using the Whole30.
I'm trying so hard.
I'm going to screw it up like 100 times.
Okay.
So the Whole30 is, like I said at the beginning of this episode, based on the framework of an elimination diet.
So it has two parts.
It has the elimination period and the reintroduction period.
And so during the 30 day elimination period, there are a huge amount of foods you are not supposed to eat.
Are you ready for me to list them all?
Please.
Okay.
No sugar.
This includes alternative sweeteners like Splenda, but also you can't have any type of naturally occurring sweetener like honey.
No alcohol, no grains, no legumes, except for peas, no dairy, no carrageenan, no added sulfites, fruit juice is okay, but you can't drink it, and no chips.
Fruit juice is okay, but you can't drink it?
Yeah.
What are you going to do with it?
So you can splash it into stuff, if you want a little tiny bit of sweetness.
But-
Can you give me an example?
I don't even know.
I don't actually know how this would be applicable.
Maybe you have a big glass of water, and then you like, but that's still drinking it.
I don't know.
I can't explain it.
But actually, here's an example.
I think you could bake, if you wanted a little bit of sweetener in baking, you could bring it in that way.
Yep, yep.
So those are the foods that you have to cut out during the elimination period.
And there are several other rules that you are supposed to follow.
The first is that snacks are allowed, but are not encouraged.
Instead, you are encouraged to wait three to five hours between meals.
No scales or measurements.
So during the 30 days, you're not supposed to step on a scale.
You're also not supposed to measure or weigh your food.
Instead, you are supposed to focus on non-scale victories.
If you slip up, so say you're on day 22, and you cave and you have some cheese, you have to start all over again.
No slip ups are allowed.
And then the last rule is something called the pancake rule.
Okay, what's the pancake rule?
Okay, the pancake rule is you are not allowed to recreate or purchase baked goods or treats, even if they are made with Whole30 compatible ingredients.
So no recreating things like bread or tortillas or muffins or crackers or brownies or pancakes, even if they are made with Whole30 approved ingredients.
Why?
You ask such good questions, Matt.
These are the questions.
Well, at least from the Whole30 website, they say, quote, research suggests that environmental cues like smell, taste and visual cues can provoke or promote cravings.
The pancake rule assumes that during your Whole30, it will be much harder for you to reduce your cravings and change your habits if you spend all 30 days eating foods that look, taste and smell just like the comfort foods you've been relying on.
Ah, yeah, okay.
The word assumes is doing some heavy lifting in that sentence.
Yeah, no, I would agree with that.
And so that is the basic premise.
You can see that it is a very, very rule-based 30 days.
And then after that 30 days, there comes the reintroduction phase, when you are supposed to reintroduce foods and pay attention to how they make you feel.
So you know, you would add back in legumes and see how they make you feel for a few days.
Then you are supposed to have a couple of almost washout days in between, where you go back to following the Whole30 strictly.
Then you reintroduce dairy, wait a couple of days, see how you feel.
So then you are supposed to essentially just reintroduce all of the foods that you have cut out in a slow, deliberate way.
And that's pretty classic structure for elimination diets, right?
Is you kind of wipe the slate, and then you slowly try to sort of scientifically reintroduce things.
But typically, an elimination diet for like an allergy concern is like, you know what symptom you're trying to avoid, right?
This is just like, do it because you might feel better, like, generally, or like, what is the promise here?
Well, like many of the other diets we've talked about, Matt, it's going to help with all the things.
And I got really tired of having to list all of the health claims.
And so I created a clip that we can play anytime we want to review all of the magical things that a diet is going to help fix.
Ready?
Okay.
This plan will heal your gut, reduce inflammation, improve blood sugar regulation, boost your focus and mood, reduce digestive issues, improve your skin, repair your metabolism, increase your self-confidence, and may cause a reduction or elimination in a number of conditions like asthma, allergies, anxiety, brain fog, migraines, chronic pain, hormone imbalances, or joint swelling.
This plan may also result in you living your highest truth every darn day.
That's so ridiculous.
It sounds like the disclaimer at the end of a drug ad on TV, but it's all positive things.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
But like always, the Whole30 claims to help with everything.
Inflammation, joint pain, any chronic condition, mental health, postpartum depression.
I mean, it goes on and on.
And so I didn't want to have to list them all.
So there we go.
Now we have a clip we can use whenever necessary.
Perfect.
You're a genius.
And so the Whole30 approach really does touch on things like asthma, allergies, hormonal regulation, metabolic regulation.
Like all those things in that clip are real promises of the Whole30?
Yeah, there's a whole section at the beginning of the book that talks about how the Whole30 is going to reduce inflammation and then lists like, I don't know, 70 conditions that are related to inflammation.
It talks about mental health.
It talks about mood.
I mean, it really does make big claims around a variety of different things.
And so, how could people not look at this program and think, oh, wow, well, this is necessary and this is going to help me feel better.
The big eliminations here are grains and dairy, right?
You gave me the list, but grains and dairy are like top line.
Yeah, but legumes too.
I mean, that's a big one.
Yeah, legumes too.
And also, I mean, sugar, sugar in any form, so you can't even use honey.
And then sulfites, not the naturally occurring sulfites, but the ones that can be added to foods.
I mean, that cuts down a lot of stuff too.
Yeah.
Okay, gotcha.
So this was really widespread.
What were, what would you say the like, the number one thing people point to and say, when I did the Whole30, I experienced an improvement in this?
I think reading people were very focused on just, they said, I feel better.
I just feel better.
It's really interesting.
A lot, I mean, yes, I read some specific anecdotes where people said, you know, I have less acne or I, my joints feel better.
But really the overarching report was, I just feel better.
I feel more energized.
And I'm willing to let us sound like we're an ad for the Whole30 right now, because I know where we're going in this conversation, which is really poking holes here.
So can you start poking holes for me?
Tell me about the science, maybe?
Like, what do we know about any of these aspects of the recommendations of the Whole30, or its actual efficacy?
Sure.
That's a great question.
You know what?
Let me tell you about the science.
Are you ready?
Okay.
Three, two, one.
Oh, your national treasure.
There are absolutely no independent scientific studies that I could find on the Whole30, and the company itself hasn't funded any of their own research, which I was pretty surprised about because even companies like Weight Watchers like to fund their own studies and then pull out the data they like from them, Whole30 relies very heavily on survey data to, you know, quote unquote, back their claims.
So for example, on their website, you will find statements like, in a January, 2023 survey of 690 Whole30 participants, 97% said they achieved most or all of their goals for the program.
Wow.
Okay.
97%.
That's a big percent.
Yeah.
I mean, so it sounds really good, but survey data is not actual scientific data.
I mean, there's a big difference between saying, well, a lot of the people who tried it, liked it, or achieved their goals, versus actually having validated clinical research around why do you need to eliminate these things for 30 days?
Why these specific foods?
I mean, all of the questions that I would have liked to see addressed in the literature, you know, how many of them just maybe just wanted to finish the program?
Was that their goal?
Well, then maybe a lot of them did that.
I mean, it's just, it's really, really hard to kind of tease apart.
And the other thing I will say, Matt, is that the Whole30 website uses, at least in my opinion, some really bizarre studies to try and support their claims.
So remember how earlier I explained to you the pancake rule.
And I mentioned that quote to try to explain the why behind the pancake rule, where the Whole30 website says, quote, research suggests environmental cues, like smell, taste and visual cues, can provoke or promote cravings.
Yeah.
So on the Whole30 website, the studies that they use to support this claim are all rodent models of alcohol and drug addiction.
And so for me, it is just too much of a leap to demonstrate how a rat model of alcohol addiction translates to why you, a human, can't recreate a pancake.
I know.
That's ridiculous.
That makes no sense.
That's a huge leap.
Yeah.
It makes me so confused why you mentioned they're using language about, you know, having a healthy relationship with food.
And then they seem to be like founded on this belief that it's like all or nothing.
If you're going to eat pancakes, the only way to interact with pancakes is by like binge eating pancakes.
Like, do you understand the point of what you just said?
I know.
I know.
I agree with you 100%.
And so really the claims that are made around Whole30 don't have any independent research.
The studies they're often using to back their claims to me, like I said, don't really work.
And I mean, the other thing they do for other claims made about the Whole30, there's often reference to Melissa Urban and Dallas Hartwig's first book called It Starts With Food.
And the first half of that book tries to explain the science behind, why are we eliminating grains and why are we eliminating legumes?
But quite honestly, it's just, it's so much cherry picking of research.
And so you see things that we have debunked on this show before, like lectins are terrible and plants have anti-nutrients and seed oils are pro-inflammatory.
And so, you know, it's just relying on data that is not sound and that we've really dug into and debunked already.
Yeah, and our takeaways are not that those aren't like interesting research questions, but like in the case of lectins, we don't have data showing it's like clinically relevant to worry about lectins.
Yes, there's things that could be called anti-nutrients in food, but we probably don't need to worry about them.
They're not going to have like a negative impact on our health, broadly speaking.
And what was seed oils?
All right, seed oils largely misinterpreted when we think about them as being pro-inflammatory, which, yeah, we talked about in detail in past episodes.
So that's the kind of data that are underlying these recommendations that lead to this belief that you're going to want to eliminate these foods for 30 days.
That's exactly right.
Yep, that's exactly right.
And again, I love that you said that it's not the research question itself that you and I have a problem with.
I think all of these questions are great to ask.
Ask and look into whether or not seed oils are pro-inflammatory, but then you can't ignore the body of evidence that suggests that they are not pro-inflammatory and only use studies that adhere to your narrative.
Okay, so that really is the science.
The last thing I will say just from a kind of like scientific perspective about what other organizations have said about the Whole30.
In 2024, when a panel of health and nutrition experts for the US News and World Report looked at the Whole30, they had this to say, quote, The diet is highly restrictive and unnecessarily cuts out healthful foods like whole grains and beans that we ought to be increasing in our diets, not eliminating.
indeed, there is no evidence that whole grains and legumes are pro-inflammatory.
These foods are actually linked with reduced risk of chronic diseases.
And further, there is no evidence that this 30-day plan will restore, heal, or balance anything in the body.
This is not a lifestyle plan, but a temporary fad diet whose claims are not grounded in sound science.
Yeah, I largely agree with that.
I mean, I think you and I would both say that if people feel like they have a healthy enough relationship with food to explore dietary changes of any kind, they're welcome to do so.
Certainly, so if you want to see if you feel better not eating beans for a while, fine, go for it.
But again, it comes back to the promises that programs like this make.
And I mean, where's the weight loss?
Like, just reveal the weight loss at this point.
Like, where is the promises of weight loss?
It's there, right?
I haven't read it.
But did you encounter it?
Of course, of course I did.
I mean, and it's really interesting because Melissa Urban talks so much about how this is not a weight loss plan and how the Whole30 is not a diet because you don't have to count calories and how non-scale victories are the focus.
And again, I feel like if there was a word of this episode, it would be contradictory because in the very first part of the Whole30 book, it says, quote, if you want more energy, better sleep and sustainable weight loss, the Whole30 is for you.
So this idea that it is not for weight loss or that it's not supposed to be engaged with for weight loss or people aren't going into it, thinking it is for weight loss, is just quite ridiculous, honestly, in my opinion.
And I would love to see of the 97% of people who felt like they achieved their goal after 30 days, like, was it 92% that listed weight loss as their goal, right?
And yeah, when you're going to follow a short term restrictive diet, you might experience weight loss.
Right.
And the Whole30 is so big on supposedly focusing on quote unquote non-scale victories.
They have a whole page of the book dedicated to things that you're supposed to focus on, besides the number on the scale.
But some of those non-scale victories include things like, quote, a flatter stomach, a leaner appearance, and clothes fitting better.
So, I mean, like to say that they're not offering or promising or hinting at weight loss, it feels just blatantly incorrect to me.
And then after 30 days, then they're like, all right, now get on a scale and give us a good survey rating.
That's right.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And so, and here is the other kind of plot twist that I wanted to make sure that we talked about today, is that a year after Melissa Urban and Dallas Hartwig published that first version of the Whole30 book that went very big and was on the New York Times bestseller list, Melissa Urban herself wrote a book called The Whole30 Food Freedom Forever.
And we've got to talk about this because now we're about to bring in relationship with food and food freedom.
I mean, things that you and I think about and talk about a lot.
Yeah, I'm so interested in how they're going to spin this.
So the word of the day, if you will, contradictory.
I feel like we're really about to get into it.
Right, because in this book, Whole30's Food Freedom Forever, with the subtitle Letting Go of Bad Habits, Guilt and Anxiety Around Food, to me, when I started looking at this book and going through it, it felt so discordant, given the fact that to me, the Whole30 plan seems to be the opposite of food freedom.
And so Matt, I am going to have you read a quote from Whole30's Food Freedom Forever, if you would, to get a sense of how Melissa Urban is thinking about food freedom and relationship with food.
Quote, it's time to develop a healthy relationship with the very thing holding you hostage.
It's time to turn cravings, addictions, and yo-yo patterns into a healthy, balanced relationship, staying happy, healthy, and in control while allowing yourself the pleasure and reward of worth-it foods.
Ugh, Jennifer.
I know.
It's time to lose the guilt, lose the powerlessness, lose the idea of food, or you being good or bad based on what's on your plate, or the number that shows up on your scale.
Okay, thoughts?
Because this is so much of the language that you and I use, think about, work with.
You and I talk about good and bad foods and moving away from language categorization.
You and I want people to have a balanced, healthy relationship with food.
You and I want people to have food freedom, whatever that looks like for them as an individual.
But what do you think about this quote?
It makes me upset because I feel like people who hear a quote like this and then think about maybe messaging that's closer to what you and I share, they're like, ah, it's similar.
Like we're kind of splitting hairs here.
You have some similarities, some differences.
But I actually think that this quote is like antithetically like opposite from a lot of the things that we talk about.
And I think it's important to mention that, you know, we don't talk about food as addiction.
We don't talk about worth it foods versus not worth it foods.
We don't talk about staying in control to avoid those addictive patterns that are quote unquote holding you hostage.
That doesn't sound like a healthy, peaceful relationship with food.
That sounds pretty militant.
Yeah, that's exactly what it feels like to me.
Very militant, very structured, very rigid.
And it's really interesting because Melissa Urban's definition of food freedom is quote, feeling in control of the food you eat instead of the food controlling you.
It's a three part process.
Reset your body, enjoy food freedom, and acknowledge when you are slipping, then start over to regain control again, close quote.
Matt, how do you think she suggests regaining control again?
Oh, it's stuck to the whole fucking thing over again.
Of course, of course.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So she thinks that when you start to slip, the way you should again reset yourself is to do another Whole30.
And gosh, reading this, it felt kind of brilliantly diabolical to me because essentially the Whole30 and then Melissa Urban's definition of food freedom will essentially funnel people into this endless cycle of Whole30 resets when you feel like you're losing control or slipping.
And then you supposedly find food freedom again, but then you slip up and you do the whole program again.
I mean, again, so diabolical kind of because it keeps people in this cycle constantly.
Where is she making money on the second, third, and fortieth time that you do the Whole30?
Like, oh, that's what I'm missing is where is she making money downstream?
Well, I think she continues to come out with books.
She continues.
Is she licensing the name Whole30 to food products?
Yeah, remember, like I said earlier, right?
So like Blue Apron and then Whole Foods.
And so she's licensing products and having them use the name.
She is continuing to write books.
She has different plans on the website.
So yes, she is making a lot of money by kind of keeping people in this community of constantly re-engaging with Whole30 resets.
Gotcha.
Hey, I wonder how much of this whole food freedom thing is a response to people sharing their disordered eating patterns projected on to Whole30 when the book initially came out.
Like was there some awareness that people were using this as a new form of control, exactly like Melissa and Dallas recommend, in the context of eating disorders or disordered eating symptomology?
I read quite a bit about how the Whole30 moved many people towards having more orthorexic tendencies.
So many people became very focused on eating as clean as possible and cutting out anything processed.
And it became extreme for many people.
I mean, I think the other piece here is the Whole30 has really negatively impacted some people's relationships with food and has triggered disordered behaviors.
Actually, you know, this is a good time.
I'll have you read this quote, Matt, from a Business insider article from 2023 by a writer named Laura Amstadt.
And this is about her experience engaging with the Whole30.
Quote, My energy levels plummeted before the first bag of sweet potatoes was depleted.
I could run only two miles when eight was my norm.
I slumped into the couch each afternoon, sapped of energy.
The Whole30 daily diary informed me that this was my body in withdrawal from the supposed bad things, sugar and carbs.
I felt as though I should be proud of myself for making this positive life change, even though I felt like garbage.
But when the time came to bring these foods back into my diet, the familiar guilt came back too.
I felt like I shouldn't want to eat these things anymore, and when I did enjoy them, my anxiety skyrocketed.
This wasn't what I had been promised by the Whole30.
It was supposed to bring me food freedom.
Instead, eating became stressful as I debated which good foods I should eat while trying to override my desire for bad foods.
Rather than feeling in control around the foods I eliminated while on the program, I was left feeling out of control, and feeling out of control brought on shame, which led to binging, which led to more shame.
Food went from being a way to fuel myself to a morally loaded subject, and if I binged or ate something that was deemed bad, I was a sinner.
I failed.
Yeah, it's a lot.
And it really speaks to how restrictive diets have the potential to really negatively impact someone's relationship with food and to be kind of a gateway to disordered behaviors.
Yeah, absolutely.
It sounds like this writer really went through quite a difficult process with this Whole30 thing, and I think that's good to call out too, because we talk about it in broad terms of like the rules, and it's 30 days, and here you go.
But you know, day to day, it's like feeling like trash, like feeling low energy, not feeling well.
And they use the term withdrawal, which is interesting, which we've talked about before.
Well, and what do you think about this idea?
Because one of the things that the Whole30 does, like many other detoxes or reset programs, is it kind of sets you up to feel bad.
There's a whole section of the Whole30 book that kind of walks you through how poorly, both physically and mentally, you're going to feel in the first part of the program.
And I just am curious to know your thoughts about that, Matt, this idea that feeling exhausted is normal, or really missing the foods you love and enjoy, is just part of the struggle, and the only way that you'll be able to get to a healthy, controlled relationship with food.
Yeah, I think about a couple of things.
I mean, from like a physiology standpoint, I'm like, yeah, if you're experiencing like a big zap in your energy when you're not having grains or, you know, anything with a meaningful source of carbohydrates in it, yeah, it might be have low blood sugar.
It's not that surprising.
But I think the psychology piece is more interesting, which is like, why do we have to feel like trash to get to the other side?
Like, what is the benefit here?
I'm not even clear.
How are we benefiting from putting ourselves through this shitty experience?
Like, what's the point of it?
Well, and you know what I thought, too, is that could it be that it's grief and not withdrawal?
And what I mean by that is, you know, our relationship with food is a relationship.
And then when we cut out lots of foods that we love and enjoy, and when we have to go to a cookout and not be able to eat, you know, our uncle's burgers that they make with cheese on top, could it also be that we're experiencing grief from not being able to enjoy and engage with foods that we love and that bring us joy?
Absolutely.
But it sounds like this book is trying to convince you that if you can just push through that, you'll reach the other side where you'll, like, experience enlightenment or somehow have an alleviation of whatever symptom you brought to the table to begin with.
And I don't know, it's just, like, a very hard-o way to approach food.
Like, this does not resonate with me in any way.
Yeah.
I will also say, too, the other thing that made me incredibly concerned and very worried was Melissa Urban's stance on the Whole30 and eating disorders.
So she has this whole section of the Whole30 website that's called Dear Melissa, where people can write in and ask her questions.
And I read one entry where somebody wrote in and asked her, can I do Whole30 if I have a history of an eating disorder?
And her response was, quote, I admire your dedication in pursuing a healthy relationship with food, and do believe that eating real, nutrient-dense, unprocessed foods is the healthiest way to nourish your body and break unhealthy cravings and habits.
Some people with eating disorders, active or in recovery, have found amazing food freedom with the Whole30.
The fact that we don't count or restrict calories, encourage you to eat healthy foods to satiety, and take the scale and body measurements out of the equation may prove to be the paradigm shift that you need to get back to a healthier relationship with food.
Yeah, I mean, she's using all the right buzzwords, but it's built on like a foundation of sand here.
Like, this can crumble so easily.
What is the point, again, what is the point?
Arbitrary, contradictory.
I'm like, all these words are really popping out at me.
Yeah, and then she goes on to say that the official position of the Whole30 is that it's contraindicated for those with a history of disordered eating.
But that quote I just read, I think anybody reading that could very clearly say that she's suggesting that, oh, well, it actually could be helpful.
And the Whole30 is for everyone.
And so, you know, again, I think one of my problems is this blanket universal recommendation, that this is something that everyone needs to be doing and engaging with and benefiting from.
When, quite honestly, like you, Matt, I keep coming back to the why.
Why 30 days?
Why do you have to exert so much control in order to find peace with food?
And because I want to make sure that we talk at least briefly about elimination diets.
I mean, elimination diets have been around for a long time.
They've been around for over 100 years at this point.
And they were first developed to try to understand or diagnose food allergies in patients.
And, you know, I think you'd agree, Matt.
I think I know you'd agree that there are definitely certain scenarios where an elimination diet may be helpful.
But elimination diets are very restrictive.
They require a ton of support, and they should only be done if there is valid evidence to support that someone may benefit from it.
And so while I think that elimination diets can have a place for certain individuals and may be potentially helpful, I would never recommend a strict elimination diet unless I really thought there was a good chance that someone would benefit from it.
I think that makes so much sense.
And when we think about an elimination diet for a true food allergy, you kind of know if you're going to Diana Phylaxis.
You know if you're having a specific physiological reaction.
If you approach Whole30 because you're like, I think I just want to feel a bit better.
How do you know?
How do you self-assess that?
That's a big question that comes up for me.
Well, and I think the other thing is that oftentimes when people are engaging with or participating in some of these extreme, time-restricted diets, they're often changing a lot of things at one time.
They may be drinking less alcohol.
They may be trying to focus on sleep quality.
They may be engaging in different types of physical activity.
And so then, to me, the real question becomes, is it actually the grains or the dairy that is causing you to feel poorly?
Or are you just feeling better because you engaged in more self-care over a period of time?
That's the big point for me too, because the way I've experienced talk about the Whole30 is with clients who I meet and they tell me about their history with different eating plans and diets.
And they say, Oh, well, you know, after the holiday season in December, I was feeling uncomfortable in whatever way.
And so with the new year, I started a Whole30 and I felt so much better after January.
It must be that something about dairy or grains or sugar, whatever it might be, was really negatively impacting me.
And you know, what I like to do in that situation is like really dig into like what was going on both before and during that experience.
And you know, I think the take away often is prior to doing the Whole30, they weren't in routines of sort of nutritional self care, if you will.
So, you know, not grocery shopping regularly, not planning out any ideas for meals and snacks that are going to make them feel good.
Maybe not eating consistently throughout the day at times that were going to keep their energy level stable.
Maybe they were drinking quite a bit of alcohol around the holiday season, on and on and on.
Maybe they weren't doing physical activity in any routine that made them feel good in their body.
And then January 1st rolls around, and suddenly they're grocery shopping and, you know, cooking way more for themselves and trying to get good sleep and not drinking and, you know, going for a nice long walk or doing other physical activity, on and on and on.
And then at the end of the month, they're like, I knew it was bread.
And it's like, you're missing the whole point here.
It's like, those are confounding variables.
Yeah, hopefully I have illustrated just how contradictory I find the Whole30 to be.
I just think there are many other gentler, more peaceful ways to heal your relationship with food and find food freedom.
Absolutely.
That can allow you to eat bread.
I'm really on a bread tip right now.
We just recorded our wheat belly episode for Patreon.
So I'm like very protective over bread at the moment.
And I don't feel like I have to punish myself by not eating bread for 30 days to reach some enlightenment.
Can we give the last word to Oprah?
Let's do it.
I know what you're going to do.
I know what you're going to play.
I love bread.
I love bread.
Me too, Oprah.
We all love bread here, Oprah.
I'll see you in the next one, Matt.
See you, Jed.
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